Comments: Prometheus Bound (In Red Tape)

As a European who has some familiarity with the layers of EU administration and agendas, I can understand your frustration. At the same time I hope that the sometimes too careful and slow EU approach, based on long discussions and negotiations to achieve a final consensus, may also prove useful to facilitate the acceptance of converging, "transhumanist" technologies in Europe.

Posted by Giu1i0 Pri5c0 at September 24, 2004 06:07 PM

It is worth noting however that for *each* year that a delay in the development of such technologies one is eliminating ~40 million lives -- as many or more than were lost in WWII.

So for each day that one accepts the "slow EU approach" one is most probably condeming thousands or more individuals to death.

I doubt that a significant fraction of Europeans would accept the idea that a premature death is a reasonable thing for the European political process to impose on itself.

Posted by Robert Bradbury at September 24, 2004 10:24 PM

Robert, developing a technology is one thing, deploying it is another thing. You know well that there are a number of potentially useful technologies that have never reached the marketplace and never improved the lives of people.
Suppose tomorrow someone in a lab develops a prototype magic bullet. Like all prototypes, it would work in some cases and not work or even harm recipients in other cases. This would be a good step in the right direction but this step would be only the beginning of a long road. A lot of money and effort would have to be spent to convert the prototype demonstrator into operational technology. This would require acceptance by politicians, probably public funding, acceptance by regulatory authorities, and (especially) by the people in the street. Achieving all that takes time and work. These are all slow processes where you must give the system time to relax to equilibrium before moving on to the next step.
So though I am frustrated myself by the "slow EU approach", I can see its merits in terms of gradually building consensus. Of course I would like to see things happening a bit faster.

Posted by Giu1i0 Pri5c0 at September 25, 2004 07:16 AM

I think it was "The Clock of the Long Now" that made the point that we have layers of society that change fast (fashion), slower (markets), slow (law) and very slowly (culture). It is a kind of onion with a fluid surface and more and more fixed interior layers. The upper layers adapt quickly to a change, the lower act as dampers. If changes go in the same direction long enough the lower layers move there too. This is far better than a society where all layers are similarly plastic since it will retain long-term information while adapting partially to short-term information. The timescales of change and how different they should be between different levels remains free parameters (that are non-obvious: their "optimal" values are highly dependent on the distribution of event timescales and what metric of success one uses).

Ideally this is how the EU should work. Local systems adapt to local and short-term changes, while Brussels deals with overall strategy. But the problem is that the slow-moving systems not only slow changes, but also that they tie the faster layers to their own timescale. If industries or research projects are forced into lockstep with central planning, they lose flexibility or have to spend resources circumventing the slower systems.

An interesting possibility is that the EU might be useful as a slow-moving reservoir in an otherwise fast-moving world. It would not be highly economically competitive, but it would also be less vulnerable to rapid shifts. Rather than aim for one global onion of societal change we could have several: a slow EU, a faster US and maybe an ultra-fast China or India. Since it is not clear where the optimal gradient of timescales lie, having several different approaches might be beneficial.

Posted by Anders at September 25, 2004 07:08 PM

Beautiful and useful analogy this of the onion, I am visualizing the outer layers rotating and trying to friction drag the inner layers along.
I think the innermost layer is law, which reacts to cultural changes by codifying them when they are already solid and irreversible.
Perhaps scientific advances are seen more like fashion by Americans, more lke law by Europeans.
I see you agree that the slow approach also has its merits. It could be a T-shirt line: Americans do it fast, Asians do it faster, Europeans do it well.
But I agree that slow change should be seen as nothing more than the price to pay for thoroughness and consensus, and that things should not be made even slower than necessary.

Posted by Giu1i0 Pri5c0 at September 27, 2004 07:23 AM

One problem with EU discussions is that nobody dares to point out that we have different views and goals. We want thoroughness but to different extent (safety testing vs. extreme precautionary principle caution). In most questions there is no european consensus and quite deep value differences - but making them visible is not popular, since it disrupts the impression of a unified Europe where a single supranational system can make decisions we all agree with.

Had the EU just been seen as a free trade zone, this would not have been a problem. I can trade with people I disagree with. The number of issues where we would have had to reach a compromise would also have been relatively small. But given that the EU tries to be so much more, it needs a lot more consensus and compromise building. And that in turn leads to ignoring dissent.

I see my role in these discussions very much as the irritating reminder that the anti-human enhancement consensus does not exist, doing my best to force a honest discussion about the issue into the agenda (and in the long run finding those good compromises). But it is hard work getting past the self-imposed filters.

Posted by Anders at September 27, 2004 10:13 AM

You know well that there are a number of potentially useful technologies that have never reached the marketplace and never improved the lives of people!

Posted by Gevarra at September 28, 2004 12:11 AM

Note that the nice soft and slow European approach works both ways:
There is as you say a requirement for consensus, but no nation is really willing to make too many concessions. So the only way out is to water down any proposed agreements until reaching something so soft that every nation is willing to agree.
This means that on the one hand I do not expect any brave strong push toward transhumanism in Europe anytime soon, but on the other hand, I do not expect any fundamentalist backlash AGAINST transhumanism. Since unfortunately this could happen in the US (e.g. Kass & Co.) we may consider the nice soft and slow European approach as a useful safety net for transhumanism.

Posted by Giu1i0 Pri5c0 at September 28, 2004 06:49 PM

Great comments guys. Peter FDA

Posted by Peter at October 19, 2004 01:38 PM

Bizarre male bondage, enema fetish lesbian bondage. Female domination bondage art, balloon fetish foot fetish. Sexual bondage femdom art, bdsm library women in bondage. Torture drawings fetish art, bondage video bdsm library. Diaper fetish bondage paper, latex fetish photography torture. Penis torture female domination stories, bondage toys latex fetish photography. Cock torture bizarre, female bondage women in bondage.

Bondage paper bondage toys, free femdom domination. Feet fetish femdom strapon, pussy torture penis torture. Self bondage bondage gear, foot fetish enema fetish. Bondage stories gay fetish, bondage gear pussy torture. Teen bondage bedroom bondage, male bondage sex torture. Latex fetish bdsm art, bondage toys bdsm library. Femdom art sex torture, bondage stories bondage photos.

Posted by lesbian bondage at October 30, 2004 08:16 AM

Nude grannies asian mature, mature thumbs mature lesbians. Mature women nude granny sex, mature fuck matures. Mature blowjobs free mature gallery, mature naked women old granny women naked pictures. Mature thumbnails mature stories, nude grannies mature naked women. Granny fuck mature tgp, mature lingerie granny incest. Granny tgp sexy grannies, free mature movies mature ladies. Mature women nude xxx mature, granny sex mature pictures.

Mature thumbs free mature porn, mature woman mature amateurs. Mature women sex mature video, free granny sex mature mom. Mature wife nude grannies, mature sex stories mature milf. Mature black women free granny pics, mature pics free granny sex. Mature black women mature movies, mature movies granny fucking. Mature fuck granny fuck, free mature sex mature amateurs. Mature free sex sites sex mature, granny fuck mature videos.

Posted by mature sluts at October 30, 2004 09:08 AM

Gay cum free gay video, gay people free gay pics. Gay movies stud, gay porn gay pictures. Gay universe gay pictures, young gay boys gay masturbation. Gay orgy gay gallery, gay bears gay male. Gays gay cum, free gay pictures free gay sex movies. Gay sex stories gay anal sex, gay studs gay fuck. Free gay video clips gay thumbs, gay thumbs gay anal.

Free gay video clips gay masturbation, gay cumshots gay male. Gay boy gay pics, gay guys gay male stories. Gay sex stories nude gay, gay personals gay black men. Free gay gay black, gay males gay cartoons. Gay bears gay masturbation, gay cock gay anal sex. Gay sex pictures free gay mpegs, free twinks gay males. Gay fucking gay black, gay porno gay bears.

Posted by gay stories at October 30, 2004 09:22 AM

Pissing women pee pee, pee drinkers free piss. Free pee pics pee sex, pee drinking pissing sluts. Pissing sex girl pee, pissing in public piss porn. Piss sex pee girl, pee sex female pee. Lesbian watersports pee cam, girls pee pissing pictures. Panty pee outdoor pee, watersports free pee. Free pissing pictures free pissing movies, piss girls pissing women.

Piss drinker pee movies, pee movies girls pee. Pissing women pee sex, pee panties girls pee. Outdoor pee panty pee, free piss free piss. Free piss pissing cunt, girl piss female pissing. Teens pissing pissing pussies, free pissing stories pissing pics. Piss drinker pissing sex, free piss pics public pissing. Pissing pictures pissing sex, pee cam pee pants.

Posted by pissing teens at October 30, 2004 09:24 AM

Porn cartoon cartoon xxx, cartoons having sex free adult cartoons. Cartoon fucking cartoon porn pics, cartoon porn pics cartoons sex. Shemale cartoons free cartoon porn, simpsons cartoon porn free xxx cartoons. Cartoon pussy gay cartoon porn, cartoon porn cartoon bondage. Free sex cartoons toon porn, porn toons girl cartoons. Cartoons sex adult cartoon, cartoon rape cartoon nude. Incest cartoons free sex cartoons, erotic cartoon free porn cartoons.

Girl cartoon cartoon fucking, incest toons adult cartoon. Disney sex cartoon sex, cartoon sex comics disney sex. Simpsons cartoon porn cartoon rude simpsons, cartoon incest gay cartoon porn. Toon porn pics free erotic cartoons, cartoon pussy cartoon fucking. Cartoon bondage xxx cartoons, cartoon porn pictures nasty cartoons. Toon sex pics cartoons adult, disney sex cartoons sexy toons. Hentai toons cartoon rude simpsons, disney sex cartoons girl cartoon.

Posted by cartoon porn at October 30, 2004 09:26 AM

Teen xxx hot teen, naked teen teen video. Topless teens teen lesbians, teen nudist teen girls nude. Teen fucking lesbian teens, teens in bikinis teen nude. Teen bikini teen nude, teen fucking xxx teens. Teen girl teen pussy, nude teen teen lesbians. Teens in thongs teen panties, teen feet horny teens. Teens naked teen nudes, most erotic teens asian teens.

Sex teen free teen pics, teen thumbs teen tgp. Nudist teen teens naked, teen naked asian teens. Teen nudist teen gallery, hot teens teen girls nude. Teen hardcore teen fuck, black teens teen porn. Cute teens teen nudists, teens in bikinis free teen sex. Teen xxx teens naked, teen naturist sex teen. Teen slut topless teens, teen panties teen gallery.

Posted by teen lesbians at October 30, 2004 09:30 AM