From postmaster@maxwell.lucifer.com Tue Dec 31 04:35:14 1996 Received: from maxwell.lucifer.com ([207.167.210.100]) by mail.nada.kth.se (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id EAA12379 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 04:35:04 +0100 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by maxwell.lucifer.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA19170 for extropians-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 20:19:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: maxwell.lucifer.com: majordom set sender to postmaster using -f Message-ID: <32C887D6.4E5E@tpk.net> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 22:26:14 -0500 From: Michael Lorrey Organization: Northstar Technologies (http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: extropians@extropy.org Subject: SPACE: Mass transit idea References: <199612310216.SAA05001@shellx.best.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: postmaster@extropy.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Status: RO X-Status: A Reading Homo Excelsior, using that wonderful Omega Database (great work guys!), I came across the Lofstrom Loop concept, which seemed rather intriguing. There was not much detail on it, except that it used TWO space stations and one ground station, with an EM propelled/controlled "stream of bars", which I did not understand the purpose for, unless they can carry payload. Putting some old Thunkthussp onto the problem, I concieved another type of construction, that we could call a Lorrey Loop, if it hasn't already been thought of yet by someone else. (besides, it would really truck too!) ;) Essentially, you have one station at geosynch, that is say a hundred miles long, containing a main EM rail system, and an accelerator/decellerator rail in parallel. On the opposite side of the planet, you've got a ground station, with a similar EM setup. Now imagine a big loop going all the way around the planet, with its apogee at the geosynch station and perigee at the ground station. This loop, seeing as how it will be traveling quite fast at perigee and slow at apogee, would necessarily be actually simply a virtual path or corridor for a continuous line of "cars", as if it were a solid loop it would tear itself apart (solid orbital loops being quite impossible and unstable). The cars would, when reaching the geosynch station, be traveling at the same velocity as the station, from which they can either dump their load, accept a load, or be switched to the parallel system for changeover to an accelerator for transition to higher orbit or interplanetary trajectory. To build this system, you'd want a high altitude equatorial area for the ground station (Ecuador, Kenya?, maybe the Spine of PauPau New Guinea?) Its a bit different from what I've seen in other concepts, which require either towers or actual vertical linkage (!!!) the stress alone would require materials at least a hundred times more structurally sound than those known today. using linear motors and orbital mechanics from geosynch to surface, a true sky hook could be possible. For those who say ground based accelerators are impossible, I will direct you to study up on the papers of the late Dr. Gerald Bull (known as the father of the Supergun) who conclusively proved (on paper, and would have proved in practice if that darn pesky Gulf War and the Isreali assasins haddn't gotten in the way) that using conventional materials and normal chemical artillery propellants, a gun could be constructed that would be capable of placing materials in orbit, with guns specifications similar to that quoted by HG Wells' old novel. If such things can be accomplished with conventional 19th century technology, certainly using 21st century superconductor technology we could do even better. TANSTAAFL!!! Michael Lorrey ------------------------------------------------------------ President retroman@tpk.net Northstar Technologies Agent Lorrey@ThePentagon.com Inventor of the Lorrey Drive Silo_1013@ThePentagon.com Website: http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/ Now Featuring: My Own Nuclear Espionage Agency (MONEA) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/MONEA1.htm MIKEYMAS(tm): The New Internet Holiday http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/mikymas1.htm Transhumans of New Hampshire (>HNH) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/TRANSHNH.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ Transhumanist, Inventor, Webmaster, Ski Guide, Entrepreneur, Artist, Outdoorsman, Libertarian, Certified Genius. ------------------------------------------------------------ If I saw further than others, it is because I had an unjoggled view from standing on my own two feet. - Mike Lorrey From postmaster@maxwell.lucifer.com Tue Dec 31 15:46:23 1996 Received: from maxwell.lucifer.com ([207.167.210.100]) by mail.nada.kth.se (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA17441 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 15:46:19 +0100 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by maxwell.lucifer.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04835 for extropians-outgoing; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 07:40:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: maxwell.lucifer.com: majordom set sender to postmaster using -f Message-ID: <32C92769.5ADE@tpk.net> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 09:47:05 -0500 From: Michael Lorrey Organization: Northstar Technologies (http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: extropians@extropy.org Subject: Re: Space: Mass transit idea References: <199612310800.BAA22319@maxwell.lucifer.com> <32cab27a.10304000@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: postmaster@extropy.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Status: RO X-Status: Terry Egan wrote: > > There is another idea (popularized by R. Forward in various publications) > that he calls the "Space Fountain" or "Indian Rope Trick". It looks like it can > be built to any altitude and it fails gracefully; this not something that can be > said about either the Lofstorm Loop ( didn't one of the HeeChee books by Pohl > have the hero at ground zero of a Lofstorm Loop failure?) or the Lorrey Loop. > In addition, the Lorrey Loop would seem to require a vast amount of material. > Actually, it could take less than any of the others. it all depends on how many cars you want in the loop at one time. you could start with just one, and keep adding them. its essentially a huge juggling trick, so you can use that analogy to see how you could keep adding cars until you reach the capacity of the system to process them. What it will require is a vast amount of momentum put into the system, to keep things flowing. Once you get it going, the only energy you need to put in is that to match the momentum losses induced by new cargo put into the system. The cars would already have the momentum. Additionally, let me change the geosynch station, it would not need to be so big, unless it were handling a loop at full capacity. -- TANSTAAFL!!! Michael Lorrey ------------------------------------------------------------ President retroman@tpk.net Northstar Technologies Agent Lorrey@ThePentagon.com Inventor of the Lorrey Drive Silo_1013@ThePentagon.com Website: http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/ Now Featuring: My Own Nuclear Espionage Agency (MONEA) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/MONEA1.htm MIKEYMAS(tm): The New Internet Holiday http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/mikymas1.htm Transhumans of New Hampshire (>HNH) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/TRANSHNH.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ Transhumanist, Inventor, Webmaster, Ski Guide, Entrepreneur, Artist, Outdoorsman, Libertarian, Certified Genius. ------------------------------------------------------------ If I saw further than others, it is because I had an unjoggled view from standing on my own two feet. - Mike Lorrey From postmaster@maxwell.lucifer.com Tue Dec 31 23:47:04 1996 Received: from maxwell.lucifer.com ([207.167.210.100]) by mail.nada.kth.se (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id XAA14569 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 23:47:00 +0100 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by maxwell.lucifer.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA21925 for extropians-outgoing; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 15:39:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: maxwell.lucifer.com: majordom set sender to postmaster using -f Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:29:51 -0800 From: Hal Finney Message-Id: <199612312229.OAA04386@crypt.hfinney.com> To: extropians@extropy.org Subject: Re: SPACE: Mass transit idea Sender: postmaster@extropy.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Status: RO X-Status: From: Michael Lorrey > Essentially, you have one station at geosynch, that is say a hundred > miles long, containing a main EM rail system, and an > accelerator/decellerator rail in parallel. On the opposite side of the > planet, you've got a ground station, with a similar EM setup. > [...] > The cars would, when reaching the geosynch station, be traveling at the > same velocity as the station, from which they can either dump their > load, accept a load, or be switched to the parallel system for > changeover to an accelerator for transition to higher orbit or > interplanetary trajectory. My orbital mechanics is pretty rusty, but I think the cars would actually have a significant velocity relative to the geosynch station (having climbed all the way up from Earth), and similarly would need a big kick on leaving the station so that they would drop out of geosync orbit all the way down to a perigee of 1 earth radius. This is quite a big drop. My very rough calculations came out with a value of about 10,000 m/s for the velocity differential between the circular orbit and the elliptical one at apogee. Maybe that is tolerable with your EM rail, if it is long enough. A similar velocity differential exists at the Earth side as well. (Obviously you need greater than LEO speed there, which is about 7000 m/s.) Hal From postmaster@maxwell.lucifer.com Wed Jan 1 00:15:49 1997 Received: from maxwell.lucifer.com ([207.167.210.100]) by mail.nada.kth.se (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA16273 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:15:45 +0100 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by maxwell.lucifer.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA24816 for extropians-outgoing; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 16:05:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: maxwell.lucifer.com: majordom set sender to postmaster using -f Message-ID: <32C99C73.5E74@tpk.net> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 18:06:27 -0500 From: Michael Lorrey Organization: Northstar Technologies (http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: extropians@extropy.org Subject: Re: SPACE: Mass transit idea References: <199612312229.OAA04386@crypt.hfinney.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: postmaster@extropy.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Status: RO X-Status: Hal Finney wrote: > > From: Michael Lorrey > > Essentially, you have one station at geosynch, that is say a hundred > > miles long, containing a main EM rail system, and an > > accelerator/decellerator rail in parallel. On the opposite side of the > > planet, you've got a ground station, with a similar EM setup. > > [...] > > The cars would, when reaching the geosynch station, be traveling at the > > same velocity as the station, from which they can either dump their > > load, accept a load, or be switched to the parallel system for > > changeover to an accelerator for transition to higher orbit or > > interplanetary trajectory. > > My orbital mechanics is pretty rusty, but I think the cars would > actually have a significant velocity relative to the geosynch station > (having climbed all the way up from Earth), and similarly would need a > big kick on leaving the station so that they would drop out of geosync > orbit all the way down to a perigee of 1 earth radius. This is quite > a big drop. My very rough calculations came out with a value of about > 10,000 m/s for the velocity differential between the circular orbit and > the elliptical one at apogee. Maybe that is tolerable with your EM rail, > if it is long enough. A similar velocity differential exists at the > Earth side as well. (Obviously you need greater than LEO speed there, > which is about 7000 m/s.) > > Hal Your numbers are wrong. The cars would be going at their very slowest at their highest altitude (read keplers law) and fastest at the ground. I am actually concerned that they wont be going fast enough at geosynch, as they need to be going slow enough to fall back to earth, rather than staying in geosynch, even though at apogee they will be tangential to the geosynch orbit. Opening my _Introduction to Space Dynamics_ by William Tyrrell Thomson, I see that my deduction is right. Essentially, the cars will be following a Hohmann transfer orbit, with lower orbit tangential point at earth ground (perigee) and upper point at Geosynch station, where the velocity of the cars would be less than the velocity of the station, so the station would catch up to the cars as they reach their peaks, add a little momentum to keep them, and then drop them off the back, regaining the momentum when they are returning a car. If you drop off a car every time you pick up a car, you lose or gain zero momentum at the station. Give me a little time and I'll give you some accurate velocity calculations. If your equations are right, I think that you just have apogee and perigee mixed up. -- TANSTAAFL!!! Michael Lorrey ------------------------------------------------------------ President retroman@tpk.net Northstar Technologies Agent Lorrey@ThePentagon.com Inventor of the Lorrey Drive Silo_1013@ThePentagon.com Website: http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/ Now Featuring: My Own Nuclear Espionage Agency (MONEA) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/MONEA1.htm MIKEYMAS(tm): The New Internet Holiday http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/mikymas1.htm Transhumans of New Hampshire (>HNH) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/TRANSHNH.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ Transhumanist, Inventor, Webmaster, Ski Guide, Entrepreneur, Artist, Outdoorsman, Libertarian, Certified Genius. ------------------------------------------------------------ If I saw further than others, it is because I had an unjoggled view from standing on my own two feet. - Mike Lorrey From postmaster@maxwell.lucifer.com Tue Dec 31 23:59:17 1996 Received: from maxwell.lucifer.com ([207.167.210.100]) by mail.nada.kth.se (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id XAA15221 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 23:59:13 +0100 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by maxwell.lucifer.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA23147 for extropians-outgoing; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 15:50:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: maxwell.lucifer.com: majordom set sender to postmaster using -f Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 09:49:50 +1000 Date-warning: Date header was inserted by muwayb.ucs.unimelb.edu.au From: Damien Broderick Subject: Re: SPACE: Mass transit idea X-Sender: damien@ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au To: extropians@extropy.org Message-id: <1.5.4.16.19970101094905.24177f02@ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: postmaster@extropy.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Status: RO X-Status: A At 10:26 PM 12/30/96 -0500, Mike Lorrey wrote: > I came across the Lofstrom Loop concept, which seemed rather >intriguing. [snip] >Putting some old Thunkthussp onto the problem, I concieved another type >of construction, that we could call a Lorrey Loop Here's the version sketched in my forthcoming Avon novel THE WHITE ABACUS: `Shortly before they found the hex, a consortium of the ancient nations started to build a tower reaching into space.' `Oh. A Beanstalk.' Ratio recognises this concept: a diamond cable stretching from geostationary orbit to the ground, tethered atop a suitable equatorial mountain, balanced by a second cable plunging a further 110,000 kilometers into cislunar space. It was Faustian technology appropriate to the culture that captured the mass defect and coupled its orbit to Psyche's. Only poor timing had prevented the Beanstalk's completion. `"Spacehook" is how it was normally described,' Cima corrects sem. `No, the Hyde Fountain was rather more audacious.' He sketches in the air, and the Rozhdestvensky's watchful ai translates his gestures into a schematic holly display above the table. `Fire a stream of nine-kilo aluminum rings up an evacuated tower at 25 klicks a second,' he explains, `and brake them as they rise.' The ai is nothing if not quick. `Ah. The transferred force will sustain the tower structure that holds the brake motors,' Ratio sees, nodding. `It's a reverse mass-driver, fixed to the ground.' `Nice, isn't it? Twitch the little buggers around at the top with more magnets, and ram them back down.' `Reusing the power extracted on the way up, presumably.' `Yep. Send them around a big loop when they get to the ground,' and he sketches a vast sub-surface ring of superconducting magnets, `pumping the speed up again, and shoot 'em out for another trip through the circuit.' `They'd melt.' `Oddly enough, no. There's energy loss, but it only raises the temperature of the projectile rings by 40 degrees. That's dissipated on their return trip from space.' `One would wish to employ a measure of redundancy,' Ratio observes thoughtfully, `if this process is meant to carry an elevator.' `Ah, ai caution!' Cima laughs gustily. `Well, yes, even the mad dog hu engineers thought of that. Three, four, ten times redundant. But you can raise a shaft to geostationary without needing spectacular material strengths. No need for diamond fibers.' `Even so, it would clearly be a costly venture.' `Getting it up, sure.' Cima sprawls. His animation display runs in the air between them, a monstrous Tower of Babel clawing into heaven, a million aluminum rings hurled up and down and all around. `Ten terawatts of circulating power. Of course, that would've been pumped in incrementally as the tower was raised. Even so, it needed 15 gigawatts to keep it running.' He leans forward, eyes gleaming. `But it would have given us a permanent elevator to space, zipping up the tower by magnetic levitation. Linear motors. [snip] Damien Broderick From postmaster@maxwell.lucifer.com Wed Jan 1 07:53:30 1997 Received: from maxwell.lucifer.com ([207.167.210.100]) by mail.nada.kth.se (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id HAA11633 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 07:53:25 +0100 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by maxwell.lucifer.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA11977 for extropians-outgoing; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 23:46:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: maxwell.lucifer.com: majordom set sender to postmaster using -f Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 17:52:12 -0800 From: Hal Finney Message-Id: <199701010152.RAA04695@crypt.hfinney.com> To: extropians@extropy.org Subject: Re: SPACE: Mass transit idea Sender: postmaster@extropy.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Status: RO X-Status: From: Michael Lorrey > Your numbers are wrong. The cars would be going at their very slowest at > their highest altitude (read keplers law) and fastest at the ground. I > am actually concerned that they wont be going fast enough at geosynch, > as they need to be going slow enough to fall back to earth, rather than > staying in geosynch, even though at apogee they will be tangential to > the geosynch orbit. Yes, sorry, you are right about my numbers. I redid my calculations and got a lower differential, but I will wait and see what you get. I do understand that the cars in the transfer orbit are going slower than the geosynch orbit at apogee. But I miscalculated the speed of the geosynch station. I now get a value of about 2800 mps. The differential clearly can't be greater than that. My new improved calculations suggest that orbital velocity at perigee is 10000 mps, and since apogee is about 6 times larger, by Kepler's law the speed must be about 1/6 as much or about 1700 mps. This would lead to a differential of about 1100 mps, with the station going faster than the cars in its orbital direction. > Opening my _Introduction to Space Dynamics_ by William Tyrrell Thomson, > I see that my deduction is right. Essentially, the cars will be > following a Hohmann transfer orbit, with lower orbit tangential point at > earth ground (perigee) and upper point at Geosynch station, where the > velocity of the cars would be less than the velocity of the station, so > the station would catch up to the cars as they reach their peaks, add a > little momentum to keep them, and then drop them off the back, regaining > the momentum when they are returning a car. If you drop off a car every > time you pick up a car, you lose or gain zero momentum at the station. > Give me a little time and I'll give you some accurate velocity > calculations. If your equations are right, I think that you just have > apogee and perigee mixed up. Actually I am not sure how the geometry will work in terms of the station "catching up" to the cars. During the transfer, the station and the earth will have rotated to new positions. That means that each launched car is in a different elliptical orbit (in the non-rotating frame). You will need to launch the cars from a point counter-clockwise from the point opposite to the station, and receive them from a point clockwise from the opposition point. How far these offsets are will depend on how long it takes to reach geosynch orbit, how much the earth rotates in that time. Hal From postmaster@maxwell.lucifer.com Fri Jan 3 12:57:49 1997 Received: from maxwell.lucifer.com ([207.167.210.100]) by mail.nada.kth.se (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA09888 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:57:46 +0100 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by maxwell.lucifer.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA23426 for extropians-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 04:47:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: maxwell.lucifer.com: majordom set sender to postmaster using -f Message-ID: <32CCF1F9.6A6D@tpk.net> Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 06:48:09 -0500 From: Michael Lorrey Organization: Northstar Technologies (http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: extropians@extropy.org Subject: Re: SPACE: Mass transit idea References: <199701010152.RAA04695@crypt.hfinney.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: postmaster@extropy.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Status: RO X-Status: Hal Finney wrote: > > Actually I am not sure how the geometry will work in terms of the station > "catching up" to the cars. During the transfer, the station and the > earth will have rotated to new positions. That means that each launched > car is in a different elliptical orbit (in the non-rotating frame). You > will need to launch the cars from a point counter-clockwise from the > point opposite to the station, and receive them from a point clockwise from > the opposition point. How far these offsets are will depend on how long > it takes to reach geosynch orbit, how much the earth rotates in that time. > After sleeping on it, doing some intentional dreamCAD, I decided that, yes the cars, in an absolute sense are following a Hohmann elliptical orbit. However relative to the geosynch and ground stations, since we are dealing with the earth rotating, they will apear to follow a figure eight path, with the crossover point being that point at which the cars angular velocity is equal to the rotation of the earth. So, this will require good timing in geosynch traffic control to prevent car collisions in a high capacity Lorrey Loop. Anders and Shaun, would you mind compiling the gist of this discussion for inclusion in Homo Excelsior? > Hal -- TANSTAAFL!!! Michael Lorrey ------------------------------------------------------------ President retroman@tpk.net Northstar Technologies Agent Lorrey@ThePentagon.com Inventor of the Lorrey Drive Silo_1013@ThePentagon.com Website: http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/ Now Featuring: My Own Nuclear Espionage Agency (MONEA) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/MONEA1.htm MIKEYMAS(tm): The New Internet Holiday http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/mikymas1.htm Transhumans of New Hampshire (>HNH) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/TRANSHNH.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ Transhumanist, Inventor, Webmaster, Ski Guide, Entrepreneur, Artist, Outdoorsman, Libertarian, Certified Genius. ------------------------------------------------------------ If I saw further than others, it is because I had an unjoggled view from standing on my own two feet. - Mike Lorrey From postmaster@maxwell.lucifer.com Fri Jan 3 17:59:30 1997 Received: from maxwell.lucifer.com ([207.167.210.100]) by mail.nada.kth.se (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA03514 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:59:23 +0100 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by maxwell.lucifer.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA29142 for extropians-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:44:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: maxwell.lucifer.com: majordom set sender to postmaster using -f Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:33:37 -0800 From: Hal Finney Message-Id: <199701031633.IAA08829@crypt.hfinney.com> To: extropians@extropy.org Subject: Re: SPACE: Mass transit idea Sender: postmaster@extropy.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Status: RO X-Status: From: Michael Lorrey > After sleeping on it, doing some intentional dreamCAD, I decided that, > yes the cars, in an absolute sense are following a Hohmann elliptical > orbit. However relative to the geosynch and ground stations, since we > are dealing with the earth rotating, they will apear to follow a figure > eight path, with the crossover point being that point at which the cars > angular velocity is equal to the rotation of the earth. So, this will > require good timing in geosynch traffic control to prevent car > collisions in a high capacity Lorrey Loop. (-: That's an interesting design technique :-) I don't think ballistic cars will literally follow a figure eight trajectory in the earth's rotational frame of reference, although you are right that the orbit will have a loop in it. Rather, it will be more like a Spirograph pattern, because the orbit will not form a closed loop when it comes back to Earth. It will be in a different place because the Earth has rotated away. So left to itself the car would continue back on up, loop again, and come back down, repeatedly. If the period of the elliptical orbit had some simple relationship to the 24-hour rotational period of the Earth, then eventually the ground station would catch up with the cars again. But it won't happen on the first orbit. This suggests that your "ground station" maybe would be better placed in low earth orbit, otherwise you'll have a lot of fireballs streaking through the equatorial skies all over the planet. Another idea would be to put your high station not in geosynch orbit, but at whatever altitude gives the Hohmann elliptical trajectory exactly a 24 hour period. This way the cars all come back to the ground station, and you do have your nice figure eight relative to the rotating earth. The only problem is that the high station's orbit would not be geosynch. You could have several high stations and time your launches so that one would be overhead when the cars get there, or you could have the high station be in a non-inertial orbit, actively thrusting to stay geosynch. Maybe the thrust requirements would be small enough to be satisfied by mirrors. Hal From postmaster@maxwell.lucifer.com Fri Jan 3 19:31:50 1997 Received: from maxwell.lucifer.com ([207.167.210.100]) by mail.nada.kth.se (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id TAA09972 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 19:31:46 +0100 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by maxwell.lucifer.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA30605 for extropians-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:21:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: maxwell.lucifer.com: majordom set sender to postmaster using -f Message-ID: <32CD4E45.49EB@tpk.net> Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 13:21:57 -0500 From: Michael Lorrey Organization: Northstar Technologies (http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: extropians@extropy.org Subject: Re: SPACE: Mass transit idea References: <199701031633.IAA08829@crypt.hfinney.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: postmaster@extropy.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Status: RO X-Status: Hal Finney wrote: > > From: Michael Lorrey > > After sleeping on it, doing some intentional dreamCAD, I decided that, > > yes the cars, in an absolute sense are following a Hohmann elliptical > > orbit. However relative to the geosynch and ground stations, since we > > are dealing with the earth rotating, they will apear to follow a figure > > eight path, with the crossover point being that point at which the cars > > angular velocity is equal to the rotation of the earth. So, this will > > require good timing in geosynch traffic control to prevent car > > collisions in a high capacity Lorrey Loop. > > (-: That's an interesting design technique :-) > > I don't think ballistic cars will literally follow a figure eight > trajectory in the earth's rotational frame of reference, although you > are right that the orbit will have a loop in it. Rather, it will be more > like a Spirograph pattern, because the orbit will not form a closed loop > when it comes back to Earth. It will be in a different place because > the Earth has rotated away. So left to itself the car would continue > back on up, loop again, and come back down, repeatedly. > > If the period of the elliptical orbit had some simple relationship to > the 24-hour rotational period of the Earth, then eventually the ground > station would catch up with the cars again. But it won't happen on > the first orbit. This suggests that your "ground station" maybe would > be better placed in low earth orbit, otherwise you'll have a lot of > fireballs streaking through the equatorial skies all over the planet. > > Another idea would be to put your high station not in geosynch orbit, > but at whatever altitude gives the Hohmann elliptical trajectory exactly > a 24 hour period. This way the cars all come back to the ground station, > and you do have your nice figure eight relative to the rotating earth. > > The only problem is that the high station's orbit would not be geosynch. > You could have several high stations and time your launches so that one > would be overhead when the cars get there, or you could have the high > station be in a non-inertial orbit, actively thrusting to stay geosynch. > Maybe the thrust requirements would be small enough to be satisfied > by mirrors. > > Hal I'm not sure if I follow your reasoning at the moment....Remember, the ground station is rotating around the planet ina 24 hour period, as is the geosynch station. AHHH. actually, instead of being on opposite sides of the planet, the geosynch would be directly above the ground station. a car would get ahead of the two ( the relative path would be a O between the two stations, with the launch phase being the left side and return phase being the right side, looking down from above the north pole, now that I remember my Smoke Ring Rules of Living). Yes the atmosphere is a problem, but I think that using javelin shaped vehicles, with power systems on them generating high external EM fields to the point of ionizing the air around them, would decrease resistance/sonic booms, etc. If you ionize the air passing the car to a higher degree than whould be achieved by friction, you effectivley reduce resistance (drag) as well as surface temperature problems. (a simple matter of magnetohydrodynamics). Sufficient ionization also can eliminate sonic shock waves (true). WHile having the lower station in LEO would be easier on the cars, its not a launching system then (the prime goal), and you are hampered in getting material there to build it. If you build the ground station on earth first, you just shoot up cars with constrution materials, and thrusters to insert into GEO and then build the GEO station. I personally like the Ecuadorian Andes for a ground station. You could definitely get those people interested, as they would think they were rebuilding Atlantis. (old memes into new!!!). Additionally, all that good ionization will be great for producing high altitude ozone to rebuild the O3-layer. Also, being in this hemisphere, your geosynch station would be in a prime position to provide greatly expanded comm services to North and South America, weather and geophysical observation, etc. Given NA being the prime market, it only follows. -- TANSTAAFL!!! Michael Lorrey ------------------------------------------------------------ President retroman@tpk.net Northstar Technologies Agent Lorrey@ThePentagon.com Inventor of the Lorrey Drive Silo_1013@ThePentagon.com Website: http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/ Now Featuring: My Own Nuclear Espionage Agency (MONEA) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/MONEA1.htm MIKEYMAS(tm): The New Internet Holiday http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/mikymas1.htm Transhumans of New Hampshire (>HNH) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/TRANSHNH.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ Transhumanist, Inventor, Webmaster, Ski Guide, Entrepreneur, Artist, Outdoorsman, Libertarian, Certified Genius. ------------------------------------------------------------ If I saw further than others, it is because I had an unjoggled view from standing on my own two feet. - Mike Lorrey From postmaster@maxwell.lucifer.com Sat Jan 4 23:09:22 1997 Received: from maxwell.lucifer.com ([207.167.210.100]) by mail.nada.kth.se (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id XAA21942 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:09:19 +0100 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by maxwell.lucifer.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA30018 for extropians-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 15:03:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: maxwell.lucifer.com: majordom set sender to postmaster using -f Message-ID: <32CED30D.18A2@tpk.net> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 17:00:46 -0500 From: Michael Lorrey Organization: Northstar Technologies (http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: extropians@extropy.org Subject: Re: SPACE: Mass transit idea References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: postmaster@extropy.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Status: RO X-Status: Mark Grant wrote: > > On Mon, 30 Dec 1996, Michael Lorrey wrote: > > > Putting some old Thunkthussp onto the problem, I concieved another type > > of construction, that we could call a Lorrey Loop, if it hasn't already > > been thought of yet by someone else. (besides, it would really truck > > too!) ;) > > This, or something very similar to it, is in 'Man and the Planets' by > Duncan Lunan. Don't have my copy handy. That book includes many > interesting methods of travelling around the solar system. > Thanks Mark. After some discussions with Hal Finney, and some more involved calculations, I've developed a more final concept for the Lorrey Loop. Its rather convoluted, but actually a lot more feasible and basic than many beanstalk concepts out there. The attached diagram shows the path that the cars would take, relative to the orbiting GEO stations. NOTE: THe cars in an absolute sense will be following a classic Hohmann elliptical transfer orbit, which when viewed from a GEO station, would appear to cross over itself as the cars angular velocity drops below that of the rotating earth. With consideration for Kennita, I'm using a GIF format in greyscale, so its less than 20 K, which should load easily (thats the best I could do to get sufficient resolution). According to my caculations, this concept should fly..... -- TANSTAAFL!!! Michael Lorrey ------------------------------------------------------------ President retroman@tpk.net Northstar Technologies Agent Lorrey@ThePentagon.com Inventor of the Lorrey Drive Silo_1013@ThePentagon.com Website: http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/ Now Featuring: My Own Nuclear Espionage Agency (MONEA) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/MONEA1.htm MIKEYMAS(tm): The New Internet Holiday http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/mikymas1.htm Transhumans of New Hampshire (>HNH) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/TRANSHNH.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ Transhumanist, Inventor, Webmaster, Ski Guide, Entrepreneur, Artist, Outdoorsman, Libertarian, Certified Genius. ------------------------------------------------------------ If I saw further than others, it is because I had an unjoggled view from standing on my own two feet. - Mike Lorrey From postmaster@maxwell.lucifer.com Sat Jan 4 23:16:09 1997 Received: from maxwell.lucifer.com ([207.167.210.100]) by mail.nada.kth.se (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id XAA22279 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:16:02 +0100 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by maxwell.lucifer.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA30088 for extropians-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 15:07:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: maxwell.lucifer.com: majordom set sender to postmaster using -f Message-ID: <32CED3DF.1246@tpk.net> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 17:04:15 -0500 From: Michael Lorrey Organization: Northstar Technologies (http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: extropians@extropy.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: SPACE: Mass transit idea: graphic att.] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: postmaster@extropy.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Status: RO X-Status: Message-ID: <32CED3A5.4F06@tpk.net> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 17:03:17 -0500 From: Michael Lorrey Reply-To: retroman@tpk.net Organization: Northstar Technologies (http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: retroman@tpk.net Subject: Re: SPACE: Mass transit idea: graphic att. References: <32CED30D.18A2@tpk.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------DDB4F5C363E" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------DDB4F5C363E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SOrry I forgot to attach the graphic..... > > Mark Grant wrote: > > > > On Mon, 30 Dec 1996, Michael Lorrey wrote: > > > > > Putting some old Thunkthussp onto the problem, I concieved another type > > > of construction, that we could call a Lorrey Loop, if it hasn't already > > > been thought of yet by someone else. (besides, it would really truck > > > too!) ;) > > > > This, or something very similar to it, is in 'Man and the Planets' by > > Duncan Lunan. Don't have my copy handy. That book includes many > > interesting methods of travelling around the solar system. > > > > Thanks Mark. > > After some discussions with Hal Finney, and some more involved > calculations, I've developed a more final concept for the Lorrey Loop. > Its rather convoluted, but actually a lot more feasible and basic than > many beanstalk concepts out there. The attached diagram shows the path > that the cars would take, relative to the orbiting GEO stations. NOTE: > THe cars in an absolute sense will be following a classic Hohmann > elliptical transfer orbit, which when viewed from a GEO station, would > appear to cross over itself as the cars angular velocity drops below > that of the rotating earth. > > With consideration for Kennita, I'm using a GIF format in greyscale, so > its less than 20 K, which should load easily (thats the best I could do > to get sufficient resolution). > > According to my caculations, this concept should fly..... > -- -- TANSTAAFL!!! Michael Lorrey ------------------------------------------------------------ President retroman@tpk.net Northstar Technologies Agent Lorrey@ThePentagon.com Inventor of the Lorrey Drive Silo_1013@ThePentagon.com Website: http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/ Now Featuring: My Own Nuclear Espionage Agency (MONEA) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/MONEA1.htm MIKEYMAS(tm): The New Internet Holiday http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/mikymas1.htm Transhumans of New Hampshire (>HNH) http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/TRANSHNH.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ Transhumanist, Inventor, Webmaster, Ski Guide, Entrepreneur, Artist, Outdoorsman, Libertarian, Certified Genius. ------------------------------------------------------------ If I saw further than others, it is because I had an unjoggled view from standing on my own two feet. - Mike Lorrey --------------DDB4F5C363E Content-Type: image/gif; name="lorreylp.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; 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Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: postmaster@extropy.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 30 Dec 1996, Michael Lorrey wrote: > Reading Homo Excelsior, using that wonderful Omega Database (great work > guys!), I came across the Lofstrom Loop concept, which seemed rather > intriguing. There was not much detail on it, except that it used TWO > space stations and one ground station, with an EM propelled/controlled > "stream of bars", which I did not understand the purpose for, unless > they can carry payload. The idea, as I understand it, is to build a trapetzoid loop out of a moving chain of metal bars, accelerated by em-accelerators. Clarke's space tower showed that you don't need a chain, just objects with momentum. A rough sketch would look something like this: Orbitside X---->-------X / \ / \ / \ ===X---<--------<-------X=== Groundside where 'X' mark deflector stations. The stations in space would be held up by the momentum change. There is a discussion of this, and related schemes in Forward's _Indistinguishable from Magic_. And yes, the protagonist in the HeeChee books by Pohl (quite transhumanist sf actually, with no bias against uploads or AI!) was close to ground zero of a loop failure (due to terrorism). Apparently the excess energy was absorbed by boiling away a big lake... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension! nv91-asa@nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y From postmaster@maxwell.lucifer.com Sun Jan 5 00:06:37 1997 Received: from maxwell.lucifer.com ([207.167.210.100]) by mail.nada.kth.se (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA25690 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 00:06:34 +0100 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by maxwell.lucifer.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA30860 for extropians-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 16:02:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: maxwell.lucifer.com: majordom set sender to postmaster using -f Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:57:52 +0100 (MET) From: Anders Sandberg To: extropians@extropy.org Subject: Re: SPACE: Mass transit idea In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970101094905.24177f02@ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: postmaster@extropy.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Damien Broderick wrote: > `Oddly enough, no. There's energy loss, but it only raises the temperature > of the projectile rings by 40 degrees. That's dissipated on their return > trip from space.' Hmm, how do you calculate the energy losses? I'm quite curious about using the orbital tower model for another application, holding up parts of Jupiter brains... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension! nv91-asa@nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y